Filmmaking for peace...

digvid · October 16th, 2001, 12:47 PM

redrice -

As Roger points out...where does all this food come from that is not making it through? Did you know that the Taliban has been destroying rations air-dropped for the refugees? You should be directing your anger not at the US but at the Taliban. Americans are not thugs who care nothing for others. We give more money/aid to foreign countries than any other nation on earth.

You say you'll answer my question about your possible support of terrorism when you have more time. You seem to have plenty of time to answer the many other posts that have appeared since I posed the question. What gives?

Get well,
- digvid

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MovieStuff · October 16th, 2001, 01:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

you obviously believe that no one has any moral duties to anyone else in the entire world...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you obviously believe that only the west and not the Muslim nations have that 'moral duty'!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

you also seem to believe that business is entirely amoral, and that if someone says to you, 'hey, sell me a pair of pliers, so i can pull this guy's fingernails out, the store's closed,' you'd be a fool not to do it, cause in any case he'll only wait until the store opens again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, first off, you can not prove that Osama and company, or any group, notified in advance their intended use of weapons sold to them, so your analogy is meaningless. Furthermore, you have no proof what percentage, if any, of weapons used by these people were made by the U.S. More to the point, even it ALL the weapons were made by the U.S., it is what the buyer does with the weapons that constitutes a criminal act or not.

But let's talk about "amoral business" for a second:

How does your position reconcile the fact that Osama and Company makes billions of dollars marketing heroin, a highly addictive drug? Considering that the Koran forbids such things, don't you find that to be a teensy bit hypocritical? Where is the "moral duty" there, Peter? Oh, that's right. Only the west is supposed to toe the line where "moral duty" is concerned. Sheesh.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

that's fine: but just don't wander the world preaching civilisation and expecting other people to like you, when your response to this terible tragedy is mindlessly vindictive, ignorantly self-centred and appallingly callous.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, if I have to defend my life, I am going to be as "ignorantly self-centred and appallingly callous" as I need be.

But really, Peter, you obviously have little imagination of this country's formidable arsenal at its disposal that is being held in admirable restraint.

That said, don't kid yourself. You haven't SEEN 'mindlessly vindictive' yet.

Your alternative is that we should just 'assume the position' and shout,"Thank you sir, may I please have another?"

Keep trying, Peter. It is now becoming amusing to watch your attempts to put a spin on the acts of Osama and Company.

'Mindlessly vindictive'. Now THAT'S rich.

Roger

MovieStuff · October 16th, 2001, 01:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:
i supply you with facts and references, and suggest you try and inform yourself about what is actually happening in the world, and what the real strategy of the US and Europe is in the middle east, and you just rant on about how nobody is going to force you to be nice to anyone if you don't want to, and how nothing is going to be your fault unless you want it to be (which you dont), and how you are not forcing anyone else to buy their chemical weapons and nuclear bombs from the US, and what they do with them is their own business, so long as they do it in some obscure foreign country where the only people who die are poor, black and invisible on CNN...'
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! I know I must be scoring points when you start writing run-on sentences. And you accuse me of "ranting?" Hah!

You say you supply 'facts'. Okay, now you're hooked: Provide proof that we have forced the sale of chemical and nuclear weapons to another country, as you claim above.

Roger

redrice · October 16th, 2001, 01:15 PM

digvid:

as regards arab support for S11: most of the arabs/muslims i've known - and i've been working in the region on and off for over five years - are completely schizophrenic in relation to the west. that is part of what makes the region so geo-politically unstable.

as for directing my anger: i want to direct it where it can make a difference without my having to resort to violence. in my case, that means western democratic governments in whose countries i have voting rights, whose citizens speak the same language as me, and whose streets i can go down and demonstrate in: not a group of remote islamist warlords who are more or less inaccessible to me and to you, and whom our goverments are only interested in bombing till they're dead.

i know no one on this board is going to change their mind. but our governments have been had. we're being manipulated by bin laden. and we're doing EXACTLY what he and his network want. i didn't think that was a very complicated idea, and i'd hoped that as a group, S8 filmmakers would be brighter and more used to using their imagination to work out what the other guy is thinking than the generals in the pentagon seem to be, but apparently it's still too much for most people here to get their heads round.

you may enjoy seeing your federal government instrumentalised by an islamist extremist to help him achieve his aims. you may also think brute force is more important than brains.

i just wish that both our countries had leaders who were half as intelligent as our enemies.

stay well,

peter

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redrice · October 16th, 2001, 01:29 PM

"Okay, now you're hooked: Provide proof that we have forced the sale of chemical and nuclear weapons to another country, as you claim above."

roger, that was satire. you never said that, and neither did i.

i suggest we both drop it. we're just making ourselves hoarse, and wearing out other people's patience. unless you really want to share the world record for the longest, most-antagonistic thread in the history of hostboards with me...:-)

we're not going to agree. we're not going to 'admit defeat'. and we're not going to do anybody any good.

we see the world very differently, and we each regard the other as a threat to civilisation as we know it. yet if we met up for a beer and a pizza, we'd probably get on fine, at least for the space of an evening. so let's just agree to differ, and get back to films and workprinters and other simple stuff which we know something about...

good wishes,

peter

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MovieStuff · October 16th, 2001, 01:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:
i want to direct it where it can make a difference without my having to resort to violence. in my case, that means western democratic governments in whose countries i have voting rights

not a group of remote islamist warlords who are more or less inaccessible to me
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, you mean you prefer to demonstrate in countries that won't shoot you on sight for doing so. Good move. Hypocritical, perhaps, but smart.

Roger

MovieStuff · October 16th, 2001, 02:01 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:
Roger wrote: "Okay, now you're hooked: Provide proof that we have forced the sale of chemical and nuclear weapons to another country, as you claim above."

Peter responded:
roger, that was satire. you never said that, and neither did i.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure you did. You wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

and how you are not forcing anyone else to buy their chemical weapons and nuclear bombs from the US, and what they do with them is their own business,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't sound like satire to me, but what do I know?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

i suggest we both drop it. we're just making ourselves hoarse, and wearing out other people's patience. unless you really want to share the world record for the longest, most-antagonistic thread in the history of hostboards with me...:-)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah. I think Alex and I have you beat on that one. Actually, I'm surprise that Mike hasn't shut this one down already. I guess he figures it's good to get it out of our systems.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

we see the world very differently, and we each regard the other as a threat to civilisation as we know it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's pretty much a description I hold for those that fly planes full of innocent people into tall buildings full of innocent people. That said, if you see me as a "threat" then what do you consider the Taliban? A Boy Scout Troupe?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by redrice:

yet if we met up for a beer and a pizza, we'd probably get on fine, at least for the space of an evening. so let's just agree to differ, and get back to films and workprinters and other simple stuff which we know something about...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even better, you make the pizza and I'll provide the beer. If you can spin pizza like you spin the issues we've been talking about, then I'm sure it'll be interesting. As for me, I don't drink, but I'll be a typical American and force you to do something that I don't prescibe to. Between the two of us, we should have a lot of fun.

Roger

redrice · October 16th, 2001, 02:13 PM

"Even better, you make the pizza and I'll provide the beer. If you can spin pizza like you spin the issues we've been talking about, then I'm sure it'll be interesting. As for me, I don't drink, but I'll be a typical American and force you to do something that I don't prescibe to. Between the two of us, we should have a lot of fun."

you have a date! just warn me in advance when you're coming over, so i can make sure my girlfriend has her veil on and doesn't try to leave the kitchen.

peter

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MovieStuff · October 16th, 2001, 02:51 PM

You have a kitchen? I thought we'd just sit in the dirt and sweat.

digvid · October 16th, 2001, 04:51 PM

redrice -

You are right about one thing--these arguments are not going to change anyone's mind. We'll have to agree to disagree, and move on to another thread!

Later.

- digvid

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